Get it Here

Please may I? Send them to yvonne.reid9@yahoo.com

*Hugs you super tight*

Thank you so much xx

From:

delvalmom.livejournal.com

On their way, sweetie.

I agree with

cheburashka_2, they can be disturbing if you don't enjoy BDSM with an emphasis on the SM.

From:

I sent the wrong email to you lol,could you please it to yvonne.reid96@yahoo.com

I missed out a letter in the last comment,sorry.

Thanks again,Vonnie xx

From:

delvalmom.livejournal.com

okay. re-sent to the right one!!

From:

I actually don't mind BDSM fics, I've read a couple really good ones and enjoyed the heck out of them. I just have to be in a certain mood to delve into that world. I made the mistake of reading this fic when I WAS in such a mood and I haven't quite recovered yet. This one was just a little too HEAVY into S&M and was just too much for me.

I am very far from an expert on the BDSM lifestyle, but I know that safety and consent are paramount and a few scenes in that fic felt neither consensual nor particularly safe. That truly disturbed me, so I stopped reading it. The thing is that I am not sure whether some of the more extreme scenes are realistic (as in stuff like that actually happens between couples who are into S&M) or I misunderstood what the author was trying to portray because I just don't know enough about the BDSM community.

I don't want to judge the author or the fic, or discourage someone from reading it, especially if I am missing some piece of the puzzle. As it stands now, this fic wasn't my cup of tea, but if you have some insights that would help me understand it a bit more, I would be ever so grateful.

Cheers,
Vin

From:

They can also be found in PDF in Aly's 4 Shared Mirror on the sidebar. I tried to read this series and couldn't get through even the first part, so I ended up deleting the file from my computer. It's well written, but the subject matter totally disturbed me.

Edited Date: 2012-07-27 07:19 pm (UTC)

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Im not very far into it yet.So far Brian has asked Justin to marry him but I am guessing its not the I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you kinda way.I think its because he doesn't want Justin to get hurt :)

Huge Hugs,Vonnie xoxox

From:

If only that were all that was wrong with this horrific thing.

From:

Can you be more specific? In my comment above, I tried to explain (probably not very successfully) that my lack of knowledge about the BDSM community left me uncertain as to how realistic this fic really was. I realize that there's a certain amount of artistic license in any fic and more than likely in this one also. But it just felt stretched to the limits to me, for lack of a better term. The thing is that this series seems so popular, that I feel like I am missing some big piece of the puzzle and that I got disturbed for the wrong reasons.

I am genuinely looking for some guidance, because I don't want to avoid BDSM fics from good writers in the future just because I am misinterpreting something.

Thanks in advance for any advice and/or explanation.

Cheers,
Vin

From:

I read it years ago, so my memory of the details is poor. What I recall saying at the time is that this story isn't about BDSM, but abuse. The scene I recall singling out was in a kitchen, I think, and another outdoors.

After I expressed concern about the story, several other fans commented with their own similar issues, and one who was involved in the BDSM community in particular agreed with my analysis.

I would prefer not to read it again, even though I feel bad criticicizing a story I no longer remember. I'll try to find my old post...

From:

I am not sure if it's he same outdoors scene that we are remembering (hope this isn't a spoiler to anyone, but it involved knife "play"), but it was at that point that I stopped seriously reading because it did not feel consensual to me at all. I will admit to skipping ahead and reading a few pages from each of the sequels and I must have happened upon some of the extreme scenes by pure chance, because I got even more uncomfortable and at that point gave up completely.

If you can find the original discussion, that would be great. Hopefully, it'll help me understand things a bit more.

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Well, that was quite a walk down memory lane, LOL.

Yes, that was one of the scenes that really bothered me. But the entire premise of the story was troubling to me. Brian was working out his psychological issues both with physical violence and also with sexual behavior HE HIMSELF DEPLORED but felt a compulsion to perform.

BDSM is not about working out your shit by harming others, it's about exploring different sexual dynamics in a consensual way. That's not even remotely what the Brian character is doing in this story. Not even close.

As to Justin, he allows Brian to potentially take his life -- knew Brian was not in control of himself -- and still wouldn't use a safe word or withdraw consent, no matter what happened. This isn't about trust or submission, it's about being stupid and thinking that letting your lover abuse and kill you is a way of showing him you love him.

Let's not even get into the whole twisted dynamic of their supposed "love."

Now, at the time I hadn't thought about what I'm about to say, so this is new. It's something I've thought about in all the wank about "Fifty Shades of Gray," which apparently has the same problem. And I have no doubt it's something the BDSM community has long ago explored in great depth, even if it just occurred to me recently.

Is a fictional work supposed to be held to the standard of consent between the characters, or between the author and the reader? In other words, if I told my lover I wanted to explore a rape fantasy, and she and I worked that out and set parameters, and then we enacted that scene, the consent would be between her and me, right?

So, what if instead of the two of us enacting the scene, I wrote it instead? And I didn't include the parameter setting and the consent and the safeword and so on, but just the fantasy, the scene, itself. And I gave it to her to read.

In this case, the consent agreement exists, right? I wrote the story, she can just stop reading it if she doesn't want to continue with it. I'm not "forcing" anything on her; it's all fictional.

So, if you look at this fic and "Fifty Shades" (and setting aside any discussion of the quality of the works, as I'm not talking about that here), is it really accurate to say, "This is a story about an out-of-control, deeply troubled man who is acting out sexual abuse on his lover, who seems to believe that allowing him to beat him and kill him is a sign of love, and thus, the issue of consent and maturity and boundary-setting is important and the story and its characters repellant"....

OR do we instead say, "This is a fantasy in which the boundary setting and consent are taking place 'off stage,' and take place between the writer and the reader, and this is not meant to be taken as a depiction of BDSM but instead, of the fantasy itself"?

Now, personally I don't have, enjoy, or appreciate this particular fantasy. I think this story is repugnant, and it makes me sick. I wish I had never read it, and I'm feeling squicked just remembering it now.

I also have some issues with the way a lot of fans just gobble up everything about Brian and Justin without discrimination or thought, and don't really ask themselves if what they're reading is in character or well-crafted or emotionally healthy or anything else, they just accept it unquestioningly. I sometimes see people recommending certain fics as being particularly in character when they are so OOC a four year old would know it.

But it's only when I believe people are unquestioningly consuming damanging messages, when overt or veiled sexism and homophobia and other forms of bias are present, when the relationships being depicted are unhealthy but the author clearly doesn't present them as unhealthy -- then I do often feel like I want to say something, even though I almost never do.

Cont'd next comment...

From:

(CONT'D FROM PREVIOUS COMMENT)

So that's where I am with this story. It certainly does NOT depict a healthy BDSM relationship as I have known them in my friends or dabbled with VERY MINIMALLY in my own life, but does it depict a fantasy someone might play out in such a relationship?

Reflecting on that question as I write this, I guess I'd have to say no, because why would someone weigh a fantasy scenario down with quite so much troubling non-sexual psychological garbage and abuse? The dynamic that consumes Brian here is not a sexual one, nor is it about power; it's self-loathing and compulsive behavior. That's not romantic and it's not sexy, no matter what you're into.

Finally, let me just reiterate that I have not read this story for many years, and I wasn't willing to read it again to make these comments now. So take them for what they're worth!

Thanks for a great conversation.

From:

Thank you, Xie!

I read (or attempted to read) this story about 3 month or so ago, so it's still relatively fresh in my mind. So, you actually summed up my feeling about that story pretty brilliantly. The Brian in that fic pretty much needed some serious psychological help, not a boyfriend. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought their relationship was abuse, not consensual SM.

As for the argument that an author has the prerogative to leave certain things "off stage", I would agree with that, but up to a point. Usually, those "off stage" events/conversations/etc. are implied in some shape or form, or foreshadowed, or hinted at. In this particular story (or what I've read of it), there was no hint of any kind that any sort of negotiation over boundaries or rules ever happened between Brian and Justin. At no point did I feel like consent was implied. In regards to the outdoor scene I mentioned specifically, it didn't feel like Justin was submitting to his Dom, it felt like Justin was enduring what (to me) amounted to torture out of obsessive love for Brian. And Brian was deliberately hurting Justin not to bring pleasure through pain, but to physically hurt him so much that he used a safe word.

Anyway...I didn't want to stay totally ignorant of all things BDSM, so I went a-hunting for information last night. :) First, I checked out Minx's BDSM for fic writers page from the side bar and read up on some things online. So...all I can say is that all that reading pretty much reinforced my opinion on the fic. However, that is just my personal opinion and I'm sure there are readers that would totally disagree with me.

Again, thank you Xie for giving me lots of food for thought.

Cheers,
Vin

From:

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to float the idea that the consent between Brian and Justin happened off stage, but that the consent in this case was between the writer and the reader, not the characters.

From:

I do get that. And 99% of the time, as a reader, I can accept an author's prerogative to keep certain things "off stage" or intend for certain things to remain constant, or be assumed as "standard" for a particular world.

The majority of the time I trust authors wholeheartedly, without reservation and consent for them to take me on a journey into an unfamiliar and sometimes scary world. It was kind of like when I first encountered BDSM literature and on someone's rec read "The Story of O". Was it a sometimes an uncomfortable read? Was it at times disturbing? Scary? Yes, to all of those, but I finished it. Did I like it in the end? Parts of it. I even enjoyed some of them and found some scenes kinda hot; but on the whole, I wouldn't say that I liked the book. What it did do is make me brave enough (for lack of a better term) to read a few BDSM fan fiction stories after I discovered QAF and to trust the author to put some of my all-time favorite TV characters in those kinds of situations.

I may not like or agree with everything when I read fan fiction or mainstream fiction for that matter, but 99% of the time I can easily accept a premise, an idea, a plot point or characterization. I realize and accept the fact that in fiction authors twist reality to suit their purposes with regularity and not every depiction of love, sex, relationship or lifestyle will mirror our everyday world exactly.

I just couldn't suspend my disbelief enough in this particular case and in all honesty couldn't trust the author not to completely screw with my favorite characters and read the series to the end.

From:

I know what you're saying, and I feel the same way about this fic as well as tons of other fics, including some that are very much beloved in this fandom. People like, and are aroused, by all kinds of different things, and it's virtually impossible to analyze a story without saying something negative about some part of it that someone else particularly loves/is turned on by.

My interest in this particular discussion right now is really just upped because of the recent success of "Fifty Shades," which appears to touch on many of the same themes as this story.

Although discussions of specific fics, and fic in general, do spring up here from time to time, and I hope this isn't considered wank!, I do see the original poster has edited her post to say she didn't mean to "open a can of worms," just to find a fic. I actually didn't realize at first that you and the OP weren't the same person, LOL... ask anyone, I'm just horrible at noticing who says what in a discussion, tending more to respond to WHAT was said, not who said it.

So I'm sorry for hijacking the discussion, as much as I've enjoyed it. I may post about this concept on my own journal later... probably a more appropriate place for the discussion!

Enjoy your weekend!

From:

@Vonnie, Mods and Xie,

I am so sorry for the "can of worms". I didn't mean to get into such a long, drawn out discussion. It's just that the subject was fascinating to me and I let my curiosity get away with me.

A huge thank you to Xie. An extra "I'm sorry" to Vonnie for making her feel bad and/or uncomfortable even for a second. And a bow of deep appreciation to the mods for allowing such an involving discussion.

Cheers,
Vin

From:

wouldbedorothy.livejournal.com

No worries, Vin. I think it was very intelligent discussion. And I appreciate some of the indications of what the fic contains, both as a warning to readers and to help me when I have to tag this post, lol.

Is this the fic where Justin was so addicted to pain that he told Brian if Brian wouldn't hurt him (cut him) he'd go find someone else to do it? So Brian was like, well, I have to hurt him or else he'll go get himself killed? (Read a bit of that once, for tagging purposes, eyes half-closed.) Or is that another one??

Whatever this is, it's getting a "squick" tag, ya'll.

From:

Hi mod,,

I was just worried when I saw the discussion that it might get out of hand and cause trouble and I didn't want that,thats why I said sorry.

Vonnie x

From:

wouldbedorothy.livejournal.com

You're fine, Vonnie! Even if people were to get out of hand, all you did was ask for a fic, so that wouldn't be your fault.

*hugs*

april
"dot"

From:

*Is relieved*
Huge Hugs,Vonnie xoxox

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