Who is older - Claire or Brian - Debbie or Vic?

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

Can anyone tell me, according to canon, who is older? I remember Brian saying at Jack's wake that his father had told Joan she was to get an abortion because he couldn't afford another mouth to feed. That makes it sound as though Claire was their first child and Brian their second. Also, was there any scene that made it clear that Vic was older than Debbie? I know Vic was born in 1951, which would mean that he had to be older than Debbie, but the way they behaved toward each other, I always had the impression Debbie was older.


ETA: Thanks for all the comments! You guys have been a great help.

Comments

[kmboatright.livejournal.com]

Claire was older; in fanfic authors often make her three years older, like she'd been a high school senior when Brian was a high school freshman.

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the reply. I always thought that Claire was a couple of years older than Brian. I thought that her oldest son, John, was supposed to be around 12 which would mean that Brian was 19 when John was born. I could see Claire getting married right out of high school or even getting pregnant her senior year and her parents forcing her to get married; sort of her way of getting out of her parents' house.

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

Vic is younger. Deb calls him her little brother during the course of the show, can't remember which episode.

Claire is older than Brian by several years, I would say. During S2, she brings her sons to Brian's to talk about her mother, they're around 10 and 8, judging by the looks of the actors. If Brian is 31, then the oldest kid, John, would have been born when he was in college. For some reason, I doubt Claire married right out of high school. Also, during Jack's funeral, when Brian's telling the story, he says "Joanie, you're getting yourself an abortion, cause I don't want another fucking kid." Ep 119.

[akannis.livejournal.com]

It's definitely true that Claire is older than Brian - the quote from 119 confirms that. I never imagined her to be several years older though... I find it quite believable that Claire got pregnant when she was in her early 20s (she doesn't strike me as someone who has gone to college anyway...)

It is true that Debbie calls Vic her little brother during the show, but if you look at the *gaaaahhh* timeline that seems unlikely:
- (Ignore for a minute that Michael's 30th birthday party was in November the first season - which would mean he was born in November 1970.) When Devina Devore comes to town in ep 2.13 and Michael confronts Debbie about his "father", we are told that he "died in Vietnam on April 10, 1970, two weeks after you was born." This would mean that Michael was born in March of 1970 after having been conceived the summer after graduation. This means that Debbie would likely have been 17 or 18 in the summer of 1969 and born in either fall of 1951 or spring of 1952.
- When Michael is worried about Mel in ep 3.10, we are told that Debbie was 17 when she got pregnant with him. Meaning she was most likely born in 1952 (or even 1953).
- According to Vic’s gravestone he was born in 1951 (according to his Babylon card from season 1 he is born in 1952 – but I’m guessing that was Vic pretending to be younger than he was ☺).

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the reply. I always thought the quote from 119 confirmed that Claire was older, but as I stated in another reply I recently read a story that had me confused. (Actually I've read a few stories that have made Brian older than Claire, but I don't remember whether they were complete AU's or supposedly following canon.)

As for Debbie and Vic... I was working on a timeline for a story and realized that if Michael turned 30 in the fall of 2000 then Debbie had to have been born in 1952 (working on the premise she got pregnant close to the end of her senior year, say May or June, since Daniel never knew about it and left town after graduation) and that would make her younger than Vic since it is canon that he was born in 1951.

Thanks for the episode quotes! I didn't remember the 2.13 quote giving the date Michael's 'father' died. Although, I thought she had changed her name to Novotny before Michael was born. I remember Michael saying Debbie was 17 when she was pregnant, but I don't remember his birthday being in November. I thought the only birthdays where months were even hinted at were Molly's (October), and Ben and Justin's (Pisces - late Feb or early March). Guess I need to pull out the dvds again! ;)

[akannis.livejournal.com]

My comment that Michael's birthday in season one falls in November was more of a deduction than a fact. M's birthday party is in ep 111, three episodes later (when Emmett is doing his 'see the light' induced 'spring cleaning') Michael tells us that it is December. Counting backwards and trying to fit all the events of the first half of season 1 into a reasonable timeline has me assume that Michael's b-day must be in November :).

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

Damn! I wish I was that clever. ;) I need to pay closer attention!

[gaedhal.livejournal.com]

It's definitely November 1970, with Brian born the next Spring,
around April or May (Prom Season) of 1971.

If Michael was born in March of 1970, what was the pregnant
Debbie doing being laid by three guys named Julio at Woodstock
in August 1969? (See her conversation with Brian in the loft after
he's fired.) A little creepy, that!

In other words, CowLip and the writers didn't give a damn about
continuity. Fic writers trying to make sense of it all are doomed
to failure.

[akannis.livejournal.com]

I guess theoretically she might not have been aware she was pregnant yet in August of '69.

There are those who would probably argue that Debbie getting high and sleeping with multiple Julio's during her pregnancy would account for some of Michael's less flattering characteristics...

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

I never thought about the Woodstock comment because I always thought that Michael was born in early 1971 instead of late 1970. Now that I know Michael's birthday was in November that does make me wonder why she was at Woodstock with all those guys named Julio.

Thanks for the response.

[darla-isabelle.livejournal.com]

According to 2.13 Michael was born in March 1970, which would mean that Debbie was already pregnant at Woodstock (August 1969), though possibly not yet aware of the fact. (It would also mean that Michael would be more than a year older than Brian, who was born in Spring 1971 according to 1.22.)

With Michael's birth date being in November 1970, as it was in season one, there would be no problem with either of that.

[wouldbedorothy.livejournal.com]

M's birthday party is in ep 111, three episodes later (when Emmett is doing his 'see the light' induced 'spring cleaning') Michael tells us that it is December.

Wait, the same ep that has Justin telling Brian at the end his birthday is tomorrow? Justin's b-day is in... December??

SIGH. Show, you confuse me so.

[akannis.livejournal.com]

lol... yeah, Justin's birthday is definitely in December... in season one, that is...

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the reply. I remembered the comment Brian made at the funeral, which was why I was certain that Claire was older. I was confused because I read a fic recently that was supposed to be canon up to season 3 but the author had Brian stating that his father married his mother because she was pregnant with him.

I always thought she was maybe 2-3 years older. I think Claire could have married directly out of high school. I can't see her wanting to stay in that house with her mother and I can't see her having any means of moving out on her own. Getting pregnant and marrying young would be a way out.

[kat-us.livejournal.com]

What about in 203 when Vic gives his Babylon card to Justin and the doorman says, "Born 1952?,, you look damned good ....?.. Vic.""

Continuity, we don't need no stinkin' continuity...

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

That was 103. 203 was When my boy walks down the street.

[kat-us.livejournal.com]

Oops, of course it was 103. *hides QAF obsessed head in shame*

[wouldbedorothy.livejournal.com]

I think we just have to take "little brother" at face value and assume Deb is supposed to be ever so slightly older than Vic, regardless of how the years we're given don't line up with that at all, which seems to just be a continuity error on the writers' part.

[kinwad.livejournal.com]

"seems to just be a continuity error on the writers part."
Continuity error? There are no continuity errors in QAF!! *snickers*

[akannis.livejournal.com]

Writers? What writers? It is all real :)

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't remember for sure if Deb actually referred to Vic as 'little brother' in the context of her being older or that she was physically bigger than him.

(Personally, I don't think the writers understood the meaning of continuity.)

[elvenfixation.livejournal.com]

Based on 1.19, Claire is older.

As for Debbie and Vic, has anyone ever considered the possibility that maybe they're twins. (That's my way of not making myself nuts over it anyway...)

[cowboystracker.livejournal.com]

"As for Debbie and Vic, has anyone ever considered the possibility that maybe they're twins. (That's my way of not making myself nuts over it anyway...)"

Hahaha! I never thought of that! I like that idea!

Thanks for responding.

[wouldbedorothy.livejournal.com]

I like that, too! Although you'd think it would get a mention, lol, but I'm going with it. Both born in '52 (screw the gravestone), Deb was 17 when she got pregnant but 18 when she gave birth, and Deb was born like 5 minutes before Vic, which is why she gets to call him "little brother" :)

[pfodge.livejournal.com]

Just to make things a little more confusing, and show how off the continuity is, according to episode 103 and Vic's Babylon membership card he was born in 1952, but his grave stone from episode 409 says 1951.

[kinwad.livejournal.com]

Ah, you have to love Cowlip's attention to detail! *snickers*

[pfodge.livejournal.com]

Lol...It never ceases to amaze me how many continuity errors there are in this show. It makes it fun to seek them out though.