Get it Here

actually a lot of her stuff was about Brandon ( the greasy mechanic looking guy that was supposed to be hotter than Brian but wasn't even close)and not Mpreg. I can't remember if she wrote any of that.

I don't really get slapping some other guys name in there and selling it. It's still a Brian and Justin story, and their spirits and essence are still in there, I also don't get taking the stories away from the fandom. /shrug. I think I might be the only one that feels this way about all this.

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mlmhm45.livejournal.com

Mask is actually not a fan fic its a Novel by Jan Irving the name Jans_intentions writes under. You can ind it at Dreamspinner Press http://www.dreamspinnerpress.com/store/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=mask&osCsid=qaduhgrgcojf4081tsms7kkbd3&x=41&y=11

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michira-70.livejournal.com

Mask was in fact a fanfic by jans_intensions. She published it rewritten as novel.

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Question: I wonder if it's exactly the same with only the names changed because if so...wow.

I have friends that do write fanfic to better hone their writing skills, but they have never taken an idea from fanfic and then transferred it to their published works.

Would that not affect the credibility of the author if someone comes up going, "Hey I remember this story only it was about blank and blank instead..."

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michira-70.livejournal.com

I only saw excerpts and it really is very similar, but I heard of people who did read the book. They all said it's almost exactly the same, just the names changed.

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So...people are expected to pay $16.99 or $5.99 for a story they already read before? *blinks*

(deleted comment)

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I do as well, mostly because I have to defend fanfic so often against those that don't believe it to be "real" writing experiences because of the fact that one uses pre-made characters. I feel that if a writer can take those characters and make a believable story involving them to appease so many that have their own opinion on what those characters will do/will not do then they are in fact a good writer. They have a tougher audience to deal with to make sure they don't stray off into OOC-land to the point it's unbelievable that those characters are the sames ones that people have come to love. (And also to not simply stray into what I call massive multi-chapter PWP that pretends it has a plot line.... *coughs*)

So when people do abuse it in this way it sort of saddens me because it's as though they took my line of defense against those so appalled by fanfic in general and shot holes in it because they are doing to the very thing that those accuse fanfic writers of doing: making a story that does not resemble anything remotely familiar to the point you can substitute any name in the story, still read, and never know the difference.

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The thing I don't get is it's sorta like preying on a fandom in a way. You write a few pretty good stories in the QAF fandom, keep them up while people give you hundreds of comments and suggestions. Then you take those comments and suggestions. Use them to re-write the story and then take away the story from the fandom that helped you, just because you are going to sell them with new names slapped on. It's an odd situation that I just don't get. The part I don't even get more is why take away the stories from the people that helped along the way.

Also isn't it sort of cheating a bit considering you are starting with characters that are already fully formed by someone else? That merely putting them into different situations and giving them new names does that make them your characters now? So many grey areas and I never see this talked about.

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That's why I have to constantly argue with those that hate fanfic so strongly. We are cheating when we use other characters because guess what? We don't have to make a believable back story unless we really delve deep into AU and totally change things. Even then we still have to try to make those characters believable to the intended fandom.

As far as the ones I know that use fanfic to better hone their craft is to see if they can make believable stories that others would read, what style do most people prefer, etc. Also, when a writer allows readers to provide "actual feedback" instead of "OMG I <3 THIS!" or "YOU ROCK!" then they can learn from their work. However, there are many that will not allow this no matter how nicely critique is given. I've been guilty of the massive PWP after laying a good foundation and had to have someone point out that the story wasn't really "going anywhere". Did I shut down shop? No...I went back, read it and went, "Wow...how did they not die of dehydration because one can't survive on body fluids alone!" And that was a NICE comment, I've had plenty of flames over the years. :)

On style, you think about it each book has it's own "style" of writing and some people tend to lean towards one style more than others. It's trying to gauge what you find comfortable writing in and making a healthy balance. Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly and I wish I could bring up two titles of books that have vastly different writing styles off the top of my head but I'm drawing a blank. Maybe I can go into more detail later in my journal when I have something to show for it. Each writer has their own way of writing and after a while if you are familiar with their work you can easily spot them out when they choose to do anon fanfic memes. I used to be pretty good at it in other fandoms to the point where I had every author pegged as soon as it opened. Now...not so much because in QAF I came into a fandom that had so many stories already completed by authors that are not currently involved. But again they are learning to better their writing not taking what they have given fandom and using it for monetary gain. They write new stories and have an improved attitude that they can do it, they know if they drag on with descriptions it can bore the reader, etc.

But like you I agree, taking fanfic that people have read, commented on and THEN turning it into a published work by changing names is bad form. However, I also understand that many fanfic authors do this a lot and it saddens me because there are some that if they really worked at it they could write their own work without having to rehash something they wrote previously.

Personally, I'm against hiding fanfic away even in f-locked journals. Yes, I have a separate fanfic journal that I do not associate with my this journal because I don't want someone to hold the fact I may have an opinion that vastly differs from their own against my work. I've seen people that avoid writers/fanfic because they had a disagreement with them. They may have had different views on window furnishings. I feel that when you shut people out or pick and chose who can read your works you are losing out. If you only receive comments that are positive when there could be problems with your story does that help you better yourself as a writer? Especially when your readers are scared they will be kicked out forever if they dare make a comment that isn't 100% praiseworthy? I understand that some people are just wanting to avoid flames in general but again when you make your audience afraid to be honest with you...I think you lose a lot more in the end. No one said you had to keep the flames...you could always screen the comments and leave those out. *shrugs*

highd I hope you aren't concerned about starting wank with me, I'm more than willing to discuss things. :) In fact, I'm considering trying to explain this in a better fashion on my journal because I'm sure I just rambled off here.

Edited Date: 2011-05-19 01:36 am (UTC)

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Personally, I'm against hiding fanfic away even in f-locked journals. Yes, I have a separate fanfic journal that I do not associate with my this journal because I don't want someone to hold the fact I may have an opinion that vastly differs from their own against my work. I've seen people that avoid writers/fanfic because they had a disagreement with them. They may have had different views on window furnishings. I feel that when you shut people out or pick and chose who can read your works you are losing out. If you only receive comments that are positive when there could be problems with your story does that help you better yourself as a writer? Especially when your readers are scared they will be kicked out forever if they dare make a comment that isn't 100% praiseworthy? I understand that some people are just wanting to avoid flames in general but again when you make your audience afraid to be honest with you...I think you lose a lot more in the end. No one said you had to keep the flames...you could always screen the comments and leave those out. *shrugs

While I agree with some of this, I have to tell you that sometimes flames and attacks get so bad, you f-lock your story and journal because you get just so tired and sick of all this shit, and writing should be fun (especially if it's done without any monetary gain), and not dealing with those things.
I admit that I'm one of those who f-locked their journal because of that. And yes, maybe I'm missing out on readers. I haven't kicked anyone from my f-list for giving honest, constructive feedback. And not even if our opinions differ. But I expect a certain amount of courtesy when discussing things and to ensure that, I locked my journal and haven't regretted it yet. Everyone who wants to join, is welcome. :)
Oh - and to make that perfectly clear, the flames I received were never about my fanfic. Unfortunately they were on a more pesonal level and were along the lines of "you dirty fag" or "you gay asshole" - so, really, this is my journal and I'm not taking stuff like in a lj that I wouldn't take in RL either.

Edited Date: 2011-05-20 11:17 am (UTC)

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Trust me, I completely understand the desire. It's because of wank that started many many years ago because I disagreed with BNF in another fandom when one decided to tear apart a new writer because she wrote a piece in a crack!fic verse that apparently didn't fit into their "code" and I informed them that what they did was inappropriate.

I was blacklisted in that fandom, banned from many communities, anytime my writing was posted I got misc hateful comments that had nothing to do with my work. I eventually posted from another journal I had and suddenly I was "the most awesomest person evar!" =/ So I kept it separate and there's nothing personal there. It's all public and yes, there's times I still get flames especially on older pieces that even I'm scared to read now because I know now that I can do better...but I'm not going to remove those old pieces either. Maybe I can deal better with the flames there because they don't actually know me only my writing. *shrugs* I've seen my share of nasty comments there but maybe it's harder for those that "open" themselves to their readers by not only giving them glimpses of their work, but their personal lives so they take it harder when people say negative things.

However, if I'm understanding your comment right, you aren't dissuading people from adding you, reading your fic, and maybe possibly eventually coming to you with something that bothers them. Personally, I don't know anything you've done. I think my issue with f-locked fanfic journals is when the writer picks and chooses their readers based on feedback. There's so many that won't take anything that isn't 100% positive and will pick and chose their readers by those that offer only praise and those that dare to say anything else...well out they go...regardless of how it's stated.

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I have no problem with criticism as long as it's related to the writing. Or any kind of discussion as long as people don't throw around insults or something like that. In all the time I've had my lj I have defriended - I think - three or four people, two of them because it turned out they were liars and hurt a lot of people through it. Can't really remember the other two - if there were any. I always try to encourage honest criticism and I'm glad to get it. We all learn from our mistakes, and only improve as authors through it.
See - I wouldn't even mind flames were they just related to the fics or original stories I write. I get that Brian/other isn't everybody's taste, so yeah, people have told me "no, I can't read a story like that" - and that's okay. However, when people get downright insulting on a personal level, when you get hate mail and things like that, I think it's way off and I'm just too tried to deal with this in lj, too.

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I stopped in just now because I saw so many comments on this post and my first thought was "oh please god, not again", but this convo is really good.

Unfortunately they were on a more personal level and were along the lines of "you dirty fag" or "you gay asshole"

Good lord, someone actually said that to you? O.o

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Oh yeah, they did. And that were the more tame things sent my way. :(

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*hugs*

I know that we're all pretty passionate people, and our feelings get the best of us, and the easiest thing to do is to revert to name-calling. I've been called a bitch so much that I just laid claim to it and say "yeah I am", you know? But there are lines and limits, and unfortunately, people cross them. All I know is, if someone called my daughter a fucking dyke, whether or not she uses the term herself, I'd be out kicking ass.

The interesting thing is, I grew up with black people calling each other the N word as a term or endearment or a way of greeting. It was pretty much reclaiming a word that was used negatively towards them. Same as I hear gay men use the F word. But then, we get pissed when someone else calls us that, someone that's "other". What I did was drop the N word from my vernacular when I was a teen, and I don't use it, don't like it, don't want it used around me. I would assume you feel the same.

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I stopped in just now because I saw so many comments on this post and my first thought was "oh please god, not again", but this convo is really good.

Sorry for the scare, I may be opinionated but I try hard to talk reasonably with others. (As noted below when I said that

josieb1 and I had to agree to disagree.) Though I'll admit that if someone chooses to rant, rave, and cuss about me that I can't always stop myself from ranting, raving, and cussing right back at them. Just because they erase any instances of them behaving poorly doesn't mean it did not happen and they can pretend that they never did anything in the wrong...however, as I explained to Connor in an e-mail you never know who is screencapping...

Edited because I can't type.

Edited Date: 2011-05-22 07:17 pm (UTC)

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Oh, no, I was just happy that the conversation was civil! lol

We're all of us opinionated to a certain degree. We can get heated when we feel we're being misunderstood. But as long as everyone is being respectful, I'm good with it.

Trust me, I never used to screencap anything, but I've learned that sometimes it can cave your ass. lol

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Oh I only used the QAF fandom as an example because that's the only one I follow but it crosses over to Buffy and Twilight and Harry Potter too.

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I've seen Yu Gi Oh fanfic turned into published works. THAT still makes me laugh hardcore, but you have to understand the fandom to understand why. :)

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wouldbedorothy.livejournal.com

I think I feel about the same way you do about QAF fic being sold as novels, but it seems even more questionable when it's fics based on *books* (Twilight, HP) being turned into books.

I can see RPF possibly making the transition, IF it was very much AU to begin with. Preferably more so than this (http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Toby-Jan-Irving/dp/1615813640/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305745917&sr=8-1).

I don't know. Taking fics from fandom (and moreso, from the characters - I'm a dork) always makes me sad panda.

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I was going to mention the idea of taking away from the characters but didn't know how to put it. I totally agree with you about that. Slapping another name on Gale and Randy or Brian and Justin, while keeping their essence and characterization intact bothers me.

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There is a writer I know from the LOTR/Viggo/Orlando fandom that actually took 2 stories that she'd written and turned them into books. The difference was that the fanfic stories were RPS, and she changed quite a few things. She's an amazing writer, btw.

If you want to turn your fanfic into publishable fic, go for it. But at least make it different enough that the reader feels they're reading something new, you know, like same verse, different circumstances or something.

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mlmhm45.livejournal.com

opps sorry i did not know that. my bad

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I buy fanfic repackaged as original fic. I also have Mask and its a very good book, as well as a few more by Jan Irving. Coincidently I never read any of her stories as fan fic as I found the QAF fandom too late, but I have read J2 Stories rewritten as original fic, I also have quite a few books where I also have the fan fic version as well.

I buy the books to support the authors as a) they are very good writers, and b) I want them to continue writing. What you tend to find is once a fan fic writer has moved over to original fic they no longer write anything in fandom, so if you want to continue to read stories written by them you buy the books.

For me its just the same as reading books by other authors who didn't start in fan fic, its no different.

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I support the authors that I know I've read fanfic for and have discovered their published works. I just have issues with rehashed fanfic. I suppose it's because I think of it this way:

Let's say I've written an essay for one of my classes and turned it in to my professor. She then provides me not only a grade, but suggestions on how to correct my grammatical errors and overall improve the essay in general. Next semester when I need to turn in essays for my new class (which has similar topics) do I then rehash that previous essay? Do I take what that another professor has shown me, correct the mistakes, and turn it in again because this new professor has never read it before?

Does that sort of make sense why I think it's unfair to take fanfic that has been online however long, yank it off, change a few names, then make money off of it? I wouldn't make money from rehashing an already graded essay, but I'm cheating not only myself but my professor by not putting the work into the class and just reusing material I've already done before. Maybe my work ethic varies from others...who knows.

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I think we just look at in a different way, for me every fan fic story I read is a gift, so if an author allows me to read it as a fan fic story, for free, then I can hardly have a go because she then decides to rehash it and get it published. After all it's my decision to buy it, no one forces me. And if the author decides to remove the story from the fandom, whilst I can understand newer fans being annoyed, as I was originally with Jan Irvings stories, it is understandable. The story is the authors creation they have the right to do with it what they will.

I have, and continue to beta both fan fic and original stories, even though I edit and give advice, it's still the authors creation.

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Yes, I think we have to agree to disagree, which is perfectly normal. I personally won't buy works that I know are rehashed fanfic, but like you said it's my choice. Should she make something original that I know for a fact that is not simply rehashed B/J fic then I would be willing to purchase and support her works. (Or any author that has worked hard on something that again...is not simply rehashed fanfic.) I think that's where my line is drawn when I know that they simply searched/replaced names and called it "original" when many others know that it's not.

I came late to the party in QAF so her fanfics were already gone, a while back when I was asking about one I heard of someone linked me to the website but then I was informed that it was the same story just new names. I suppose the idea that it was so easily able to be changed from Brian/Justin fanfic to Greg/Steve, Mike/Sam, or whatever name combination you prefer was my turn off point. *shrugs* Again different strokes for different folks. :)

Edit: Typo!

Edited Date: 2011-05-18 09:19 pm (UTC)

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It's a very emotive subject on both sides, it's just a real pity the fan fic can't live side by side with the published book, then everyone would be happy. I think it causes more friction in the QAF fandom as Jan is so insistent that her fics are not shared around, its much more relaxed in the SPN fandom, and in that fandom the authors who published are supported quite well, and there is more than just one, I know of at least 5 authors in the SPN fandom that publish their stories.

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I don't think it's just limited to cause friction in QAF, I was using it as an example because of the fact that is our joint "fandom". I've seen in it others, in fact there was major flare up years ago in HP when one fanfic author not only tried to have her works published using different character names, but so much of the items in her stories were pulled from old paperback books that it seems she hoped no one would recognize. (I can't recall her name off the top of my head but there was many websites dedicated towards that mess.)

I've known many authors over the years that write both fanfic for fun and then publish their own books. I've also known many that don't want their published name connected with their Livejournal account as well and understand their need for that separation.

I think it's like

kellydeer said below us, people wanted the story as it was with the beloved characters from their fandom. Even knowing it's the same story when the names are changed it changes how some perceive it.

Edited Date: 2011-05-18 11:48 pm (UTC)

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kellydeer.livejournal.com

Yes! Exactly!!!

Thank you ipitydaf00l

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You talking about Cassandra Claire, aka Cassandra Clare? She's tied into (albeit lightly) that HUGE wank with MsScribe...which is like HP fandom legend. It took me a WEEK to read all of that, and...wow. Just...you've not seen or been involved in wank to equal that shit. Multiple sockpuppet accounts, stalking/not stalking, legal threats...dude.

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Yes, Cassie Claire or CC. At first I was getting her confused with Heidi, only because I still use the term Heidipologies (http://wiki.fandomwank.com/index.php/Heidipology) on occasion...and it's part of the Cassie Claire mess.

I remember MsScribe along with many others even some from fandoms that I wasn't a part of. (I used to have a group of friends that were very dedicated to any fandom_wank to be had because it was like TV to them.)

I think it's what surprises me about people that have been in a fandom for any length of time. Those that act as though they are shocked that places like fanfic_rants and fandom_wank exist. Others that feel that if they simply delete comments that makes things go away and they don't have to apologize for their behavior because "it's not there anymore". Nope, as many have discovered the hard way that you have to be willing to stand by anything you do say comment wise. It's why I don't use anon comments, except in rare cases. (Those anon writing memes for example...even then I've screwed up and forgot to change it to anon at times.)

I may have to apologize later to some people, but most of the time I rarely get ugly or hateful unless they have given me a valid reason to. Mostly being ugly or hateful to me first. Granted in my last "fight", Laurie chose not to say those things to me, just about me in various journals that I was friend's with at the time. Sure those comments are deleted now...but that's the beauty of screencaps. :)

The really hilarious thing was she wanted me to keep her on my f-list and give her the names of people sending me PMs of all her entries, etc. Um...she can deal with the trolls on her f-list herself, it's not my problem, especially not after everything that has been said to me because of her threatening to "run aways forevers!"

Sorry, I can't think of wank type things without thinking about that mess at the moment.

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Believe me, honey, I understand.

Man, that MsScribe/CC wank was...brilliant. I couldn't believe the things that were said and done. This was my reason for going to F_W in the first place. Those that do not remember the past...etc. And yeah, I don't get how people don't understand or are all shocked and shaken when the mention of other wank journals comes up. They were here before I found LJ, they'll be here when I'm gone. I hate anon comms, it's just a place for people to be bitchy. And yeah, I've called out a few people on their shit in a few, different fandom, tho.

The thing with me is, I'm cool until someone pisses me off, then I blow without taking a breath. If I learned anything from the last time, it's that some people cannot be reasoned with. They will say and think what they want without looking at all sides of the issue, and they will think what they want of you, and nothing you say will change that. I learned, in essence, when to walk away. Sometimes, letting the other person rant and rave only makes them look stupid. Besides, life is way too short, and I have other, real life things to worry about.

Weeping Cock, tho...have you been there? OMG, the stuff they post, it's like (Any) Fandom's Guide To Bad Sex. I've seen stuff that is anatomically impossible, even in the anime fandoms! And the epithets for body parts!! *dies* "Man pussy" is still the one that makes me wanna hurl and die laughing at once. You MUST go there, if for no other reason than to cheer you up when you're feeling blue. One post will have you spitting liquids at your screen.

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They were here before I found LJ, they'll be here when I'm gone.

I remember when they were on LJ before they were closed down and transferred to their new home. I've been on LJ for a decade now....and so when someone goes 'OMG PEOPLE DO THAT??', I find myself thinking, "Seriously? How the hell did you not know about this?!? How could you not have ever heard of it!?"

I think I react the same way as you, and in that situation several of my buttons were continually pushed.

I'm not sure if I've been to Weeping Cock...I've heard of it, but personally never gone. I had to stop myself when I made a post about the Original/Fanfic discussion when one of my friends asked if I remembered the stories that authors tried to change Het!fic into slash!fic but they forgot to change pronouns or sexual organs. D: I almost went off onto my tangent of when I'm reading sex scenes and have moments where a really hot scene goes to hell because I'm still sort of stuck with "they just put what into what?!?!?" I know I read in a book somewhere that flowery prose was more favorable for women that purchase romance novels but I'd rather see cock than man meat, joystick, tab A and well, you get the idea. ;)

purkledragon and I had made a series of icons at one time during ADL drama in which we discussed whether young girls were using fanfic as their source for sex education. (Mostly because of shit we were seeing in fanfics.)

I still wish I could find where I saved those icons, though I admit that they are easily seven or eight years old, but they are similar to this one, but had lists:

1.) Pointy sticks make excellent dildos!
2.) Lube is for sissies!
3.) Condoms are for balloon animals, yes?

and they went on...makes me sad I can't find them because I've seen a lot of stuff during my fandom years...and have been guilty of some things too. D: If I said I wasn't at some point that would be lying. I'm sure I wrote many cliche fanfic and there's some I won't read now because wow...I had no idea what Sue!fic was in my teen years.

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I disagree. It's entirely different, and i think it's bad form to just take a fanfic, replace the characters and then publish it as original work.
I agree that there ARE fanfics turned into original work, like "Zero to the Bone" that are very good, but in that case the fanfic was already AU/AU and that certainly makes a difference. However, I don't like it - and you won't convince me otherwise. It's just plain bad form to do it. If the writer is really that good, then he or she won't have a problem producing something really original and have success with it, just like Sarah Rees Brennan proved it in the HP fandom.

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Whilst I understand and respect your opinion in a way you have just proved what I said as I never even knew Zero to the Bone was previously a fan fic. I have that book, just haven't read it yet.

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I never said that those books can't be good. Jane Seville (the author of Zero at the Bone) is a fantastic author and has written a lot of good stuff in the BBM fandom. It's not about that. What irks me in people like Jan Irving is that while she was writing fanfic, she only friended people who would feedback her, and if you didn't you were thrown out of her "circle" in a flash. So she used her f-list to improve as an author and then - voilá, she pulls all her stuff and makes money with it. that kind of behaviour is bad form. It just is.

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