getithere | Mask & Unbearable by jans

I only saw excerpts and it really is very similar, but I heard of people who did read the book. They all said it's almost exactly the same, just the names changed.

So...people are expected to pay $16.99 or $5.99 for a story they already read before? *blinks*

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I do as well, mostly because I have to defend fanfic so often against those that don't believe it to be "real" writing experiences because of the fact that one uses pre-made characters. I feel that if a writer can take those characters and make a believable story involving them to appease so many that have their own opinion on what those characters will do/will not do then they are in fact a good writer. They have a tougher audience to deal with to make sure they don't stray off into OOC-land to the point it's unbelievable that those characters are the sames ones that people have come to love. (And also to not simply stray into what I call massive multi-chapter PWP that pretends it has a plot line.... *coughs*)

So when people do abuse it in this way it sort of saddens me because it's as though they took my line of defense against those so appalled by fanfic in general and shot holes in it because they are doing to the very thing that those accuse fanfic writers of doing: making a story that does not resemble anything remotely familiar to the point you can substitute any name in the story, still read, and never know the difference.

The thing I don't get is it's sorta like preying on a fandom in a way. You write a few pretty good stories in the QAF fandom, keep them up while people give you hundreds of comments and suggestions. Then you take those comments and suggestions. Use them to re-write the story and then take away the story from the fandom that helped you, just because you are going to sell them with new names slapped on. It's an odd situation that I just don't get. The part I don't even get more is why take away the stories from the people that helped along the way.

Also isn't it sort of cheating a bit considering you are starting with characters that are already fully formed by someone else? That merely putting them into different situations and giving them new names does that make them your characters now? So many grey areas and I never see this talked about.

That's why I have to constantly argue with those that hate fanfic so strongly. We are cheating when we use other characters because guess what? We don't have to make a believable back story unless we really delve deep into AU and totally change things. Even then we still have to try to make those characters believable to the intended fandom.

As far as the ones I know that use fanfic to better hone their craft is to see if they can make believable stories that others would read, what style do most people prefer, etc. Also, when a writer allows readers to provide "actual feedback" instead of "OMG I <3 THIS!" or "YOU ROCK!" then they can learn from their work. However, there are many that will not allow this no matter how nicely critique is given. I've been guilty of the massive PWP after laying a good foundation and had to have someone point out that the story wasn't really "going anywhere". Did I shut down shop? No...I went back, read it and went, "Wow...how did they not die of dehydration because one can't survive on body fluids alone!" And that was a NICE comment, I've had plenty of flames over the years. :)

On style, you think about it each book has it's own "style" of writing and some people tend to lean towards one style more than others. It's trying to gauge what you find comfortable writing in and making a healthy balance. Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly and I wish I could bring up two titles of books that have vastly different writing styles off the top of my head but I'm drawing a blank. Maybe I can go into more detail later in my journal when I have something to show for it. Each writer has their own way of writing and after a while if you are familiar with their work you can easily spot them out when they choose to do anon fanfic memes. I used to be pretty good at it in other fandoms to the point where I had every author pegged as soon as it opened. Now...not so much because in QAF I came into a fandom that had so many stories already completed by authors that are not currently involved. But again they are learning to better their writing not taking what they have given fandom and using it for monetary gain. They write new stories and have an improved attitude that they can do it, they know if they drag on with descriptions it can bore the reader, etc.

But like you I agree, taking fanfic that people have read, commented on and THEN turning it into a published work by changing names is bad form. However, I also understand that many fanfic authors do this a lot and it saddens me because there are some that if they really worked at it they could write their own work without having to rehash something they wrote previously.

Personally, I'm against hiding fanfic away even in f-locked journals. Yes, I have a separate fanfic journal that I do not associate with my this journal because I don't want someone to hold the fact I may have an opinion that vastly differs from their own against my work. I've seen people that avoid writers/fanfic because they had a disagreement with them. They may have had different views on window furnishings. I feel that when you shut people out or pick and chose who can read your works you are losing out. If you only receive comments that are positive when there could be problems with your story does that help you better yourself as a writer? Especially when your readers are scared they will be kicked out forever if they dare make a comment that isn't 100% praiseworthy? I understand that some people are just wanting to avoid flames in general but again when you make your audience afraid to be honest with you...I think you lose a lot more in the end. No one said you had to keep the flames...you could always screen the comments and leave those out. *shrugs*

highd I hope you aren't concerned about starting wank with me, I'm more than willing to discuss things. :) In fact, I'm considering trying to explain this in a better fashion on my journal because I'm sure I just rambled off here.

Edited 2011-05-19 01:36 (UTC)

Personally, I'm against hiding fanfic away even in f-locked journals. Yes, I have a separate fanfic journal that I do not associate with my this journal because I don't want someone to hold the fact I may have an opinion that vastly differs from their own against my work. I've seen people that avoid writers/fanfic because they had a disagreement with them. They may have had different views on window furnishings. I feel that when you shut people out or pick and chose who can read your works you are losing out. If you only receive comments that are positive when there could be problems with your story does that help you better yourself as a writer? Especially when your readers are scared they will be kicked out forever if they dare make a comment that isn't 100% praiseworthy? I understand that some people are just wanting to avoid flames in general but again when you make your audience afraid to be honest with you...I think you lose a lot more in the end. No one said you had to keep the flames...you could always screen the comments and leave those out. *shrugs

While I agree with some of this, I have to tell you that sometimes flames and attacks get so bad, you f-lock your story and journal because you get just so tired and sick of all this shit, and writing should be fun (especially if it's done without any monetary gain), and not dealing with those things.
I admit that I'm one of those who f-locked their journal because of that. And yes, maybe I'm missing out on readers. I haven't kicked anyone from my f-list for giving honest, constructive feedback. And not even if our opinions differ. But I expect a certain amount of courtesy when discussing things and to ensure that, I locked my journal and haven't regretted it yet. Everyone who wants to join, is welcome. :)
Oh - and to make that perfectly clear, the flames I received were never about my fanfic. Unfortunately they were on a more pesonal level and were along the lines of "you dirty fag" or "you gay asshole" - so, really, this is my journal and I'm not taking stuff like in a lj that I wouldn't take in RL either.

Edited 2011-05-20 11:17 (UTC)

Trust me, I completely understand the desire. It's because of wank that started many many years ago because I disagreed with BNF in another fandom when one decided to tear apart a new writer because she wrote a piece in a crack!fic verse that apparently didn't fit into their "code" and I informed them that what they did was inappropriate.

I was blacklisted in that fandom, banned from many communities, anytime my writing was posted I got misc hateful comments that had nothing to do with my work. I eventually posted from another journal I had and suddenly I was "the most awesomest person evar!" =/ So I kept it separate and there's nothing personal there. It's all public and yes, there's times I still get flames especially on older pieces that even I'm scared to read now because I know now that I can do better...but I'm not going to remove those old pieces either. Maybe I can deal better with the flames there because they don't actually know me only my writing. *shrugs* I've seen my share of nasty comments there but maybe it's harder for those that "open" themselves to their readers by not only giving them glimpses of their work, but their personal lives so they take it harder when people say negative things.

However, if I'm understanding your comment right, you aren't dissuading people from adding you, reading your fic, and maybe possibly eventually coming to you with something that bothers them. Personally, I don't know anything you've done. I think my issue with f-locked fanfic journals is when the writer picks and chooses their readers based on feedback. There's so many that won't take anything that isn't 100% positive and will pick and chose their readers by those that offer only praise and those that dare to say anything else...well out they go...regardless of how it's stated.

I have no problem with criticism as long as it's related to the writing. Or any kind of discussion as long as people don't throw around insults or something like that. In all the time I've had my lj I have defriended - I think - three or four people, two of them because it turned out they were liars and hurt a lot of people through it. Can't really remember the other two - if there were any. I always try to encourage honest criticism and I'm glad to get it. We all learn from our mistakes, and only improve as authors through it.
See - I wouldn't even mind flames were they just related to the fics or original stories I write. I get that Brian/other isn't everybody's taste, so yeah, people have told me "no, I can't read a story like that" - and that's okay. However, when people get downright insulting on a personal level, when you get hate mail and things like that, I think it's way off and I'm just too tried to deal with this in lj, too.

I stopped in just now because I saw so many comments on this post and my first thought was "oh please god, not again", but this convo is really good.

Unfortunately they were on a more personal level and were along the lines of "you dirty fag" or "you gay asshole"

Good lord, someone actually said that to you? O.o

Oh yeah, they did. And that were the more tame things sent my way. :(

*hugs*

I know that we're all pretty passionate people, and our feelings get the best of us, and the easiest thing to do is to revert to name-calling. I've been called a bitch so much that I just laid claim to it and say "yeah I am", you know? But there are lines and limits, and unfortunately, people cross them. All I know is, if someone called my daughter a fucking dyke, whether or not she uses the term herself, I'd be out kicking ass.

The interesting thing is, I grew up with black people calling each other the N word as a term or endearment or a way of greeting. It was pretty much reclaiming a word that was used negatively towards them. Same as I hear gay men use the F word. But then, we get pissed when someone else calls us that, someone that's "other". What I did was drop the N word from my vernacular when I was a teen, and I don't use it, don't like it, don't want it used around me. I would assume you feel the same.

I stopped in just now because I saw so many comments on this post and my first thought was "oh please god, not again", but this convo is really good.

Sorry for the scare, I may be opinionated but I try hard to talk reasonably with others. (As noted below when I said that

josieb1 and I had to agree to disagree.) Though I'll admit that if someone chooses to rant, rave, and cuss about me that I can't always stop myself from ranting, raving, and cussing right back at them. Just because they erase any instances of them behaving poorly doesn't mean it did not happen and they can pretend that they never did anything in the wrong...however, as I explained to Connor in an e-mail you never know who is screencapping...

Edited because I can't type.

Edited 2011-05-22 19:17 (UTC)

Oh, no, I was just happy that the conversation was civil! lol

We're all of us opinionated to a certain degree. We can get heated when we feel we're being misunderstood. But as long as everyone is being respectful, I'm good with it.

Trust me, I never used to screencap anything, but I've learned that sometimes it can cave your ass. lol

Oh I only used the QAF fandom as an example because that's the only one I follow but it crosses over to Buffy and Twilight and Harry Potter too.

I've seen Yu Gi Oh fanfic turned into published works. THAT still makes me laugh hardcore, but you have to understand the fandom to understand why. :)

I think I feel about the same way you do about QAF fic being sold as novels, but it seems even more questionable when it's fics based on *books* (Twilight, HP) being turned into books.

I can see RPF possibly making the transition, IF it was very much AU to begin with. Preferably more so than this (http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Toby-Jan-Irving/dp/1615813640/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305745917&sr=8-1).

I don't know. Taking fics from fandom (and moreso, from the characters - I'm a dork) always makes me sad panda.

I was going to mention the idea of taking away from the characters but didn't know how to put it. I totally agree with you about that. Slapping another name on Gale and Randy or Brian and Justin, while keeping their essence and characterization intact bothers me.

There is a writer I know from the LOTR/Viggo/Orlando fandom that actually took 2 stories that she'd written and turned them into books. The difference was that the fanfic stories were RPS, and she changed quite a few things. She's an amazing writer, btw.

If you want to turn your fanfic into publishable fic, go for it. But at least make it different enough that the reader feels they're reading something new, you know, like same verse, different circumstances or something.

Mask & Unbearable by jans_intentions

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not starting wank just asking real questions.

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